At last I met Count G. in the street of Argostoli, and he told me that Lord Byron had resolved to depart to continental Greece in about ten days. I therefore determined to visit him, both from a sense of respect due to him, and to gratify my own curiosity in hearing and seeing a man so distinguished. I rode out to Metaxata, and fortunately found him at home. He received me very politely, and offered me refreshments, which I declined: he then said, “We must have dinner very soon.” I expressed my hope that if he had any engagement he would tell me, and not from mere politeness allow me to interrupt him; he said that he really had none, and was glad to see me, and have an opportunity of conversing with me.
I told him I would have done myself the honour of visiting him before, but I
was afraid of intruding; I had, however, been preparing myself to be ready to meet him, and
probably had wasted
132 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
I gave him a faithful and particular account, describing the effects on each,
according to their character;—I said, “The misfortune is, these young men
are all in health and strength; the world affords them pleasures and delights, which
fully occupy their time and care; and at present they esteem it to be both very
ungenteel and very unphilosophical, to be strict either in studying religion, or in
practising the duties which it inculcates: while their inclinations and prejudices are
such,” I added, “it is impossible to expect from them a patient
hearing, far less a serious examination of the evidence which I lay before them; for,
while I bring forward what I think may be useful, they are lying in wait for critical
objec-
WITH LORD BYRON. | 133 |
I confessed that my hopes were not strong, yet I would go on as long as they wished to meet me, merely with the view of convincing them occasionally of their ignorance, and of the impossibility of their reasoning justly on a subject, of which they knew so little: it might hereafter be productive of benefit to them. If men are once brought, by whatever external cause, to consider the necessity of the question, whether Christianity is, or is not true, they will bestow on it much attention and study: if they do so, the inevitable result will be a conviction of its truth.
Lord B. said that he had met with many who had talked in this way. Some of them were clergymen, who used such arguments with the same indifference with which they often read their prayers, and apparently because it was a part of the duty for which they were paid. He knew one gentleman, a layman, who endeavoured to convert him. He mentioned his name, which I forget; but his arguments, he said, did not make much impression upon him, he did not know why.
134 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
I remarked that the clearest arguments would be of no avail if they were addressed to an inattentive or prejudiced hearer. “If your lordship,” I added, “uses that reason, which God has given you, in investigating the evidence of the Christian religion, you cannot fail to be convinced. If you reject it without examination, then that same reason must compel you to admit, that you reject it without knowing its principles, and are influenced not by sound reasonings, but by prejudices resulting from the company you have kept, and from the natural reluctance which every one feels to admit a doctrine so humiliating to the pride of man. If it be alleged that men of great abilities have rejected Christianity, we say that men with equal abilities have adopted it; and these knew more of the subject than those who rejected it: if a man of talent adopts a system of infidelity, because others have done so, he cannot say that he has acted a rational part, unless he can prove, what he would find it difficult to do, that those men of high talents who received Christianity were delirious on this point!”
“I have no wish,” said Lord
Byron, “to reject it without investigation; on the contrary, I am
very desirous of believing, for I have no hap-
WITH LORD BYRON. | 135 |
“If that be the case,” I replied, “then you have no time to lose. It is your positive duty, as well as your highest interest, to begin immediately, and if you do so with a proper spirit, and persevere a sufficient time, you will arrive at a firm conviction of its truth. You must pray humbly to God to grant you, by his holy Spirit, a sense of your own iniquity, and a proper view of the necessity of a Saviour; and when you have seen this, the propriety and harmony of the doctrines of the Gospel will unfold themselves before you.”
“But I do not see,” he said, “very much the need of a Saviour, nor the utility of prayer. Prayer does not consist in the act of kneeling, nor in repeating certain words in a solemn manner. Devotion is the affection of the heart, and this I feel; for when I view the wonders of creation, I bow to the Majesty of Heaven; and when I feel the enjoyments of life, health, and happiness, I feel grateful to God for having bestowed these upon me.”
“All this is well,” I said, “so far as it goes, but, to be a
Christian, you must go farther. Such feelings of devotion as these, I believe, every
one experiences, even the most wicked, for they are
136 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“I read more of the bible than you are aware,” said
Lord B.; “I have a bible which my sister gave me, who is an excellent woman, and I
read it very often.” He went into his bed-room on saying
WITH LORD BYRON. | 137 |
I said, “You cannot do better than read this; but if you have read it so much, it is singular that you have not arrived at the understanding of it. I shall shew you,” I added, “from the bible itself, the authority which there is for a change of heart, before a person can be a true Christian, or comprehend, in a proper manner, the truths contained in this wonderful book.” I then turned over the bible to look for the third chapter of John, but as the chapters were arranged in a different manner from that to which I had been accustomed, and with different titles, I leisurely observed them; in the meantime Lord B. was waiting to be shewn the passage referred to; and as I looked, I happened to say, “I cannot find the place so readily in this bible as in the common bible.”
“Give it to me,” said Lord
B., “I will soon find it.” Of course from a feeling of
politeness I gave it to him, and told him that I wanted the third of John. I was already near the place, and should soon have found it, but when his
lordship wished for the bible, I could not withhold it. I mention this circumstance
particularly, because something
138 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
I then said, “If your lordship will give me the bible, I will shew
you the authority for the other point, indicating the necessity of prayer with a humble
heart to enable any one to comprehend the truths of the Gospel.” I then read
to him part of the first chapter of the 1st Epistle to the
Corinthians, and part of the second, in which it is expressly declared that the
cross of Christ is to the Jews a stumbling-block, and to the Greeks foolishness.
“God has confounded the wisdom of the wise, by means of the things which are
low and foolish; no human wisdom can spiritually discern the truths of the Gospel; man
must lay aside his own pride and wisdom, and submit to be taught by the Spirit of God.
We can know nothing of God, nor his ways, except as he teaches us; we must not come
forward with our own notions, to sit in judgment on what he reveals; and if he has
revealed to us any part of his will, he demands from us that to which he is entitled;
the submission which a child should pay to the instructions of a parent, and those who
do not this, will
WITH LORD BYRON. | 139 |
“Of the wickedness and depravity of human nature, I have no
doubt,” said Lord B.; “I have
seen too much of it in all classes of society; and under the mask of politeness and
patriotism I have found so much vileness and villany, that no one, except those who
have witnessed it, can have any conception of; but these doctrines, which
140 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
I replied, “that I was sorry to say that much of what he had
advanced was true. Whether or not Dr. Watson
undervalued the bible, I did not know; if he did, it was evident, that he was not a
real Christian, for the Old and New Testament must stand or fall together. I knew also
that many of the German divines, some of them professors of divinity in the colleges,
had professed their belief, that the history of these things was a fable or an
allegory; but,” I said, “this proves nothing, for we well know, that
many of these men are Socinians, or deists in disguise, and the truth or falsehood of
the thing cannot be decided on their
WITH LORD BYRON. | 141 |
142 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
Lord B. arose from the sofa, and went to a
side—table to look at Gibbon, and we spent
some time in talking about this insidious enemy of Christianity. The statement was found as
his lordship had affirmed, but I pointed out that his authority was that of the church of
Rome, the persecuting enemy of these poor Christians, and I said that Jones in his history had so completely settled the claim
of these poor people to be considered as the true church of Christ, and the forerunners of
the reformation, that Christians of all denominations agreed on the subject. In speaking of
Gibbon, I admitted his claim as an eminent historian and fine
writer, but I pointed out his gross want of candour and fairness in matters relating to
Christianity; and I expressed wonder that any one should quote his authority on the
subject, when he is known to be a cowardly and underhand enemy, injuring it, as far as he
can, by hints and insinua-
WITH LORD BYRON. | 143 |
Lord B. said he was not aware that he had mistated or misrepresented anything intentionally. I replied that it had been found to be the case by Mr. Milner, and Mr. Davis, the latter of whom has pointed out and numbered his errors and misrepresentations; and though Gibbon referred to one or two errors which Davis had committed, and which he in a second edition acknowledged and corrected, yet he passes by the whole of the others which still stand unanswered. “Look,” I said, “also at the insinuating and plausible way in which he begins his history of the church, apparently in a very humble and decent manner, but he soon shews the cloven foot; for he states positively that Moses did not relieve the Jews, nor did the Jews believe in the immortality of the soul; and then he quotes Warburton, whose ingenious but fanciful work cannot but be condemned by every Christian.”
Lord B. asked me whether I had read Warburton’s theory. I said I had seen the work
repeatedly at a time when I had no interest in these subjects, and now, when I wish to see
it, I cannot get access to it. “I have read it,” said Lord
B.,
144 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
Lord B. said, “I should like to see
them.”—“Do you think,” he asked, “that the Devil
really appeared before God, as is mentioned in the book of Job, or is this only an allegorical or poetical mode of
speaking?” “I believe it in its strict and literal
meaning.” “What are your reasons for doing so?”
inquired Lord B. “First,” I replied,
“from the authority of our Saviour, who received this among the Jewish
Scriptures, as he never blamed the Jews for having entertained a wrong notion of those
books which they received as inspired; but, on the contrary, established them all, as
then and now received, to be the oracles of God, as is evident from the many passages
in which he refers to the Scriptures with the phrase, ‘it is written;’ and
where he expressly directs
WITH LORD BYRON. | 145 |
“If it be received in a literal sense,” said Lord B., “it gives one a much higher idea of the majesty, power, and wisdom of God to believe that the Devils themselves are at his nod, and are subject to his control with as much ease as the elements of nature follow the respective laws which his will has assigned them.”
He seemed pleased with the idea, and as it appeared to me that he must have
had some erroneous opinion similar to some of the Manicheans, with respect to the power of
God over Satan, or the evil principle, I left him a few moments to his
reflections, and when he turned towards me, I made a remark in reference to the idea, which
I supposed rested on his mind. “Although Christianity exhibits two principles at
work, one evil, and the other good, in the moral government of the universe and the
natural world, yet these are
146 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
WITH LORD BYRON. | 147 |
Another idea which seemed to please him was that which was furnished to him
by an answer I
148 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
He seemed satisfied with this answer, and reflected several moments on what
had been said. After a short pause I proceeded. “There are many great difficulties
which appear in the Scriptures to the minds of some, which are very easily answered
either by a little examination and comparison of the sacred books, or on inquiring from
the weakest Christian. And if Deists would only
WITH LORD BYRON. | 149 |
“This might do very well,” said Lord Byron, “in a matter of abstract reasoning, but how will you
account for that mass of superstition and hypocrisy which exists not only on the
continent, but even to some extent in England, and which I verily believe is the cause
of the infidelity of thousands. I have seen,” he continued, “on the
continent, both in France and Italy, such instances of hypocrisy and villany, and
everything that was detestable in those who were appointed to teach religion; and such
ignorance and superstition among the lower classes, particularly among the women, that
it is difficult for a man to give much attention to a subject which appears to be so
un-
150 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“I hope your lordship,” I said, “will always make a distinction between the use and abuse of a thing, nor charge the crimes and the vices of false Christians to the real Christian, since every candid man must admit that it is the want of belief and of the proper Christian principles and spirit which is the cause of such horrible evils.”
“I always take care to do that” said Lord B.; “I know the Scriptures sufficiently well to
acknowledge, that if the mild and benignant spirit of this religion were believed and
acted on by all, there would be a wonderful change in this wicked world; and I have
always made it a rule to respect every man who conscientiously believes the Scriptures,
whatever external creed he may profess, and most cordially do I detest hypocrites of
all sorts, especially hypocrites in religion. I have known in Italy some instances of
superstition which were at once amusing and ridiculous. I have known a person engaged
in sin, and when the vesper-bell has rung, stop and repeat the Ave
Maria, and then proceed in the sin: absolution cured all. The sins of the
head, or dissent from
WITH LORD BYRON. | 151 |
I said, “that these facts only exhibited the extremely low state of religion in the Romish church, and at the very seat of this abominable hierarchy; and it was to be hoped that the efforts which were now making by the Bible and other Societies, would tend in time to remove that darkness and superstition, and enable every man to understand and value the sacred Scriptures. And it was the duty,” I added, “of every one who witnessed such woful scenes of depravity and blindness, to lend his assistance to remedy the evil.”
“The diffusion of knowledge,” said Lord Byron, “has diminished, I am afraid, the number of the believers in Christianity; for in the dark ages, when, every body believed in witches and ghosts, which the diffusion of knowledge has sent to their cells, the belief of Christianity was more general than it is now, at least there were fewer infidels.”
I replied, “that it was impossible to reason accurately on a
subject of so extensive a nature
152 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
WITH LORD BYRON. | 153 |
154 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“But since we have spoken of witches,” said Lord Byron, “what think you of the witch of Endor? I have always thought this the finest and most finished witch-scene that ever was written or conceived, and you will be of my opinion, if you consider all the circumstances and the actors in the case, together with the gravity, simplicity, and dignity of the language. It beats all the ghost-scenes I ever read. The finest conception on a similar subject is that of Goethe’s Devil, Mephistopheles; and though of course you will give the priority to the former, as being inspired, yet the latter, if you know it, will appear to you—at least it does to me—one of the finest and most sublime specimens of human conception.”
I smiled at the singular associations which brought such subjects together
in Lord B.’s mind. I said, I agreed with him as to
the first, though I had not before considered it in a poetical point of view; but the
grandeur of the circumstances readily struck me, when he pointed them out to me, but I was
not able to judge of the latter, as it was some time since I had looked at Madame de
WITH LORD BYRON. | 155 |
“Do you very much admire Milton?” asked Lord
B. “It would be heresy,” I replied, “to say
that I do not admire Milton, and in sober earnestness I admire his
talents as a poet, but I have no pleasure in the greater part of his Paradise Lost. The weakness of fiction is
strikingly manifest to him who knows the simple majesty of divine truth, and he who is
much impressed with the latter can have no enjoyment in seeing it
156 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“Do you admire Shakspeare?” enquired Lord
B. “By no means to that extent which is generally
done.” “Neither do I,” said his lordship. “I
lately met with an invective in the Eclectic Review against our poets in general,
and in particular against Shakspeare, in which the critic, with
that sternness and intrepidity of mind which brings to remembrance the magnanimity of
the Puritans, accuses all the poets of having done little good in
WITH LORD BYRON. | 157 |
“I was pleased,” I added, “at the earnest and manly tone of the Reviewers, so different from the insipidity and common—place style of many of that fraternity in modern times, although the passage was extracted in another Review as a proof of modern fanaticism.”
“Pope”, said Lord B., “is undoubtedly one of the greatest of the English poets, and his merits are little understood by many.” I replied that he was certainly one of the best versifiers in the language, but he was not a particular favourite of mine from his vanity, and from the attacks which he had made on many of his friends: neither had he clear views of religion.
“But,” said Lord
Byron, “if you read Spence’s Anecdotes, you will find Pope’s
character placed in a clearer and more correct point of view than is often done, and
that as a friend, as a son, and
158 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“They are wrong, nor am I inconsistent,” said Lord B. “For though Jeffrey made a great mistake in the commencement, he was sufficiently
chastised for it, and from the time he was sensible of his fault, he has been uniform
in a more fair and honourable mode of criticism than some who profess to be more
decidedly my admirers. In
WITH LORD BYRON. | 159 |
I said, “Certainly, Jeffrey appears to censure your lordship with regret, and he does it in the prettiest, gentlest terms possible, mixing expressions of high admiration for your abilities, with his hopes that you will leave such subjects as Cain, and employ your talents on those which will be honourable to yourself, and useful to others.”
“But,” said Lord B., “they have all mistaken my object in writing Cain. Have I not a right to draw the characters with as much fidelity, and truth, and consistency, as history or tradition fixes on them? Now it is absurd to expect from Cain, sentiments of piety and submission, when he was a murderer of his brother, and a rebel against his Creator.”
“That is true,” I replied, “but they blame you,
not for putting such sentiments in the mouth of Cain, but for not putting such sentiments into those of Abel and Adam, as
would have counterbalanced the effect of what Cain
said. And they moreover urge, that the sentiments of Cain are carried too far, even to the height of blasphemy,
160 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“To myself it has,” said Lord B., “for it has raised such an outcry against me from the bigots in every quarter, both in the church and out of the church, and they have stamped me an infidel without mercy, and without ceremony; but I do not know that it has been, or ever can be, injurious to others.”
“I can mention one instance, at least, of its
WITH LORD BYRON. | 161 |
“In what work,” asked Lord B., “did this fact appear?” “It was in the newspaper; whether true or false, I cannot say.” “I am very sorry for it,” he replied, “whether it be true or false. Had I known that such an event was likely to happen, I should never have written the book. I would like to see the thing, and I shall ask D. about it.”
I said, if he would permit me, I would take an opportunity of asking
Colonel D. in what paper it
162 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“I certainly,” said he, “never anticipated that the work would have been productive of evil; and in drawing the character of Cain, I prosecuted the conception of it, which the Scriptures enable us to form of him, a daring unbeliever, and blasphemer, and a vile murderer; nor can I conceive why people will always mix up my own character and opinions with those of the imaginary beings which, as a poet, I have the right and liberty to draw.”
“They certainly do not spare your lordship in that respect; and in Childe Harold, Lara, the Giaour, and Don Juan, they are too much disposed to think that you paint in many instances yourself, and that these characters are only the vehicles for the expression of your own sentiments and feelings.”
“They do me great injustice,” he replied, “and
what was never before done to any poet.” “But,” I
said, “although it may be carried too far, is there not, at least, some foundation
for the charge? Virtue and piety are qualities of too insipid a nature to excite a
vivid interest in the minds of too many readers; and in order to produce effect
WITH LORD BYRON. | 163 |
“Even in this work,” said Lord B., “I have been equally misunderstood. I take a vicious and unprincipled character, and lead him through those ranks of society, whose high external accomplishments cover and cloke internal and secret vices, and I paint the natural effects of such characters; and certainly they are not so highly coloured as we find them in real life.”
“This may be true; but the question is, what are your motives and
object for painting nothing but scenes of vice and folly?” “To
remove the
164 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“My situation,” I replied, “did not naturally lead me into society, yet, I believed, before the publication of your book, that the world, especially the lower and middling classes of society, never entertained the opinion, that the highest classes exhibited models of piety and virtue; nay, from circumstances, we are naturally disposed to believe them worse than they really are.”
“It is impossible you can believe the higher classes of society
worse than they are in England, France, and Italy, for no language can sufficiently
paint them.” “But still, my lord, granting this, how is your
book calculated to improve them, and by what right, and under what title, do you come
forward in this undertaking?” “By the right,” he
replied, “which every one has who abhors vice united with
hypocrisy.” “Then,” I added, “he
WITH LORD BYRON. | 165 |
“It is the plan,” said his lordship, “to lead
him through various ranks of society, and shew that wherever you go vice is to be
found.” “This is a fact already known,” I replied;
“and it has also been known by experience, that no satire, however witty,
poignant, or just, ever did any good, or converted, as far I have heard, one man from
vice to virtue. Neither Horace, nor Juvenal, nor Persius,
could stop the torrent of vice, and folly, and crime which inundated Rome, and which
finally overthrew it, notwithstanding all the declamations of these satirists. Nor have
I heard that Donne’s or Pope’s satires ever effected any good. Your
language is not so gross as that of Juvenal or
166 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“But it is strange,” he answered, “that I should
be attacked on all sides, not only from magazines, and reviews, but also from the
pulpit. They preach against me as an advocate of infidelity and immorality, and I have
missed my mark sadly in having succeeded in pleasing nobody. That those whose vices I
depicted and unmasked should cry out, is natural, but that the friends of religion
should do so is surprising; for you know,” said he, smiling, “that I
am assisting you in my own way as a poet, by endeavouring to convince people of their
depravity; for it is a doctrine of yours, is it not? that the human heart is corrupted,
and therefore, if I shew that it is so in those ranks, which assume the external marks
of politeness and benevo-
WITH LORD BYRON. | 167 |
“This is a very ingenious turn which your lordship has given to the question, but it will not do. The heart of man is viler than you, with all your talents, can describe, and the vilest actions are often committed in secret by those who maintain a fine character externally. All this is true. But you have not conciliated these unhappy persons to yourself, nor to a new mode of life: you have not shewn them what to do. You may have shewn them what they are, but you have neither shewn them by precept, nor by example, the proper remedy. You are like a surgeon, if I may use a simile from my own profession, who with diabolical delight tears the old rags, ointments, and bandages, from the numerous wounds of his ulcerated patients, and, instead of giving fresh remedies, you expose them to the air, and disgust of every by-stander; laughing, and smiling, and crying out, how filthy these fellows are.”
“But I shall not be so bad as that,” said Lord Byron. “You shall see what a winding up I
168 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“But what would you have me to do?” asked his lordship. “I do not reject the doctrines of Christianity; I want only sufficient proofs of it to take up the profession in earnest; and I do not believe myself to be so bad a Christian as many of those who preach against me with the greatest fury, many of whom I have never seen nor injured. They furnish the suspicion of being latent hypocrites themselves, else why not use gentler and more Christian means?”
“I do not commend their conduct. It is wrong and imprudent to
preach against individuals, either by name or character, and it is inconsistent with
the dignity of a minister of the Gospel. It is beside calculated to exasperate the
offender, rather
WITH LORD BYRON. | 169 |
170 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“But what excuse will you find for that preacher in London, about whom they have lately raised such infamous calumnies, and who has written against me in the Review with which he is connected, as well as preached against me? I do not believe,” he said, “there is the least foundation for the calumny; but how delighted he would have been, had it been raised against me! He would have readily believed it, and many others would have done so too, perhaps; so that I shew a greater degree of Christian charity in believing him innocent, than he would have done towards me.”
WITH LORD BYRON. | 171 |
“We do not know the heart,” I replied, “but we judge from conduct and conversation. The gentleman to whom you allude may consider it his duty to raise his voice against you as long as you continue in your present mode of writing and acting; but change your conduct, and you will be received with joy and open arms by him, and also by thousands who have never seen your face.”
“Of course a convert to any party is received with gratulation and joy, and, especially, a convert like myself, to whom circumstances have given a much greater degree of notoriety, as well by praise, as by censure, than I ever expected, or desired.”
“Your lordship can remove the one, and increase the other, whenever you please. You have only to examine the causes which prevent you, and you will find that they are futile, and only tend to withhold you from the enjoyment of real happiness; which, at present, it is impossible that you can find.”
“What, then, you think me in a very bad
way?” “I certainly think you are,” I replied;
“and this I say, not on my own authority, but on that of the Scriptures. No
Christian can say that he has been better than your lordship; on the con-
172 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“But,” answered he, “I am now in a fairer way. I already believe in predestination, which I know you believe, and in the depravity of the human heart in general, and of my own in particular: thus you see there are two points in which we agree. I shall get at the others by-and-bye; but you cannot expect me to become a perfect Christian at once.”
“There is a wide difference between us, and there are more points
of variance than you have calculated,” I said. “Predestination is of
no importance in the present state of affairs, whether you believe it, or whether you
do not. The
WITH LORD BYRON. | 173 |
“This is going too fast,” said Lord B. “There are many points and difficulties to clear up; when that is done, I will consider what you say.” “What are your difficulties?” I asked. “If the subject is of importance, why not have them cleared and removed? You do not want time; you can reason, and reflect. The means of clearing up these difficulties are at hand. If it were a question of poetry, or of poetic literature, you would search and examine, and soon form your own judgment: on a point of far greater consequence, why do you linger and delay?”
“This is true,” he said; “but here I am, the
slave of circumstances, surrounded by things, and people which distract my attention,
with nothing to lead me to the consideration of such subjects.”
174 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“Well, what would you have me to do? How shall I set about
it?” “Begin,” I said, “this very night to
pray that God would pardon your sins, and grant you understanding to find out the
WITH LORD BYRON. | 175 |
“Will your lordship bestow on these subjects an earnest and attentive consideration? You will rejoice that you took my advice, when a deathbed arrives; when the tumultuous pleasures of life, and the gay dreams of high ambition, and rank, and fame, pass away, and when the value of life will concentrate in one moment.”
“I shall most certainly study the subject,”
176 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“But why are these difficulties so great?” asked Lord Byron. “It is not necessary to mention more, when I find sufficient already: there is, for instance, the doctrine of the Trinity, which is alone quite appalling.”
“There is no more difficulty about this, than about any of the
others; but there is an increase of difficulty, according to the ideas you have formed
of it. Do you think, that the moment a man becomes a Christian, he loses his reason, or
any of his other faculties? Look around, and you will find that he is the most cool and
sober of all men, and is better qualified to weigh and
WITH LORD BYRON. | 177 |
178 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
WITH LORD BYRON. | 179 |
180 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
WITH LORD BYRON. | 181 |
182 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“Then what would you do with those Divines,” Lord B. said, “who have written so largely on the Trinity, and the fathers of the Church, and the creed of Athanasius, and others?”
“With respect to the creed of Athanasius, the sooner we get quit of it the better. Granting the
inferences to be fairly drawn from what is revealed, they are mere truisms, which the
mind perceives at once, and when announced with formality they have something ludicrous
in them to the wicked and profane, giving rise to parodies, as in the case of Hone. It throws not the least light upon the subject,
and being presented in one abstract form, which is never done in the Scriptures, it
provokes abstract discussions. The damnatory clause is reprehensible, for our minds are
so constituted, that there are many serious Christians who cannot conceive that these
reasonings are fair inferences from Christian revelation, and though they were, cannot
see the necessity of annexing
WITH LORD BYRON. | 183 |
184 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
WITH LORD BYRON. | 185 |
186 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
WITH LORD BYRON. | 187 |
“This is the wisdom of the world, which by reasoning attempts to find out God, but cannot; but it is not the conduct of those who, like children listening to a parent’s voice, eagerly attend to the revelation which God has given them, and who by prayer, meditation, and reading, endeavour to find out his will. The former will never understand it—the latter will invariably succeed. I therefore advise your lordship to lay aside these subjects for the present, and study Christianity, not in the books of Divines, which are more or less imperfect, even the best of them, while many are full of error; but to commence an attentive and honest examination of the Bible itself, comparing passage with passage, till at last you will find such harmony and clearness in all its parts, and such a light and brightness of wisdom upon the whole, as will leave you in no doubt about its being from God, and its containing the communication of the only way in which you can be saved.”
“You recommend,” said Lord
Byron, “what is very difficult. For how is it possible for a person
acquainted with the history of the Church,—
188 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“I like, however,” he continued, “your mode of
religion very much; you knock away the de-
WITH LORD BYRON. | 189 |
“You have placed it,” I said, “on its proper
foundation. With regard to some of your obser-
190 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
WITH LORD BYRON. | 191 |
192 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“All such opinions are decidedly wrong, and contrary to the spirit
and express precepts of
WITH LORD BYRON. | 193 |
“The first sentiment which Chalmers ever published was, that all dissenters should be united to
the church by some legal measure, which would leave them free on points where, from
principle, or weakness of conscience, they differed; and that the name and stigma
attached to a dissenter should be buried in oblivion; for there is work enough for all
Christians, to preach and teach amidst the pagans which are born, live, and die around
us! Though I would sincerely wish to see this union effected, and the different
churches reformed, as far as some of the externals are concerned, I do not wish to see
this reformation attempted by Radicals: nor do I think that the attacks lately made on
the church establishment will have any other result, than to perpetuate the abuses
which all must admit. These Radicals have little loyalty, and less piety; at least many
of them have openly professed their deistical principles; and no honest man can join in
wishing
194 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“From such an union, however, I would exclude Arians, Socinians,
Swedenborgians, and fanatics of all descriptions; leaving to them, not only toleration,
but perfect liberty of conscience. These people have no right to the name of
Christians. The Arians deny that the Son is equal to the Father; although he himself
expressly declares that he is. The Socinians say, he is not a divine character; yet
these sects call themselves Christians, while they reject the testimony of Christ.
WITH LORD BYRON. | 195 |
“You seem to hate the Socinians,” said Lord Byron. “Not the individuals,” I replied, “but their principles. I believe their system a terrible delusion, and that there is more hope of a deist, than of a Socinian, becoming a real Christian.”
“But is this charitable?” he asked; “why would you exclude a sincere Socinian from the hope of salvation?”
“I do not exclude him, and certainly I am no judge; nor ought we to judge of the ultimate state of any one; but comparing the Socinian doctrines with those in the Bible, the one or other must be wrong.”
“But they draw their doctrine from the Bible,” said
Lord B. “Yes, so do all the fools,
enthusiasts, and fanatics; so the Church of Rome founds a system of idolatry, as absurd
as ancient or modern paganism, on the Bible. The Socinians reject such parts of the
Scripture, as interpolations, or corruptions, which do not suit their scheme; they turn
literal things into metaphorical, and metaphorical into literal, until they succeed in
representing original sin, the depravity of our nature, the necessity of atonement, and
conse-
196 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“Their religion,” said his lordship, “seems to be spreading very much. Lady B. is a great one among them, and much looked up to. She and I used to have a great many discussions on religion, and some of our differences arose from this point; but on comparing all the points together, I found that her religion was very similar to mine.”
I said I was exceedingly sorry to hear that her ladyship was among such a
set, and I hoped that ere long she would see her error and danger.
“But,” I added, “were thousands more of the
WITH LORD BYRON. | 197 |
“I should have been pleased,” said Lord B. “that you had known Shelley. I should like to have seen you argue together. You very much remind me of him, not only in countenance, but in your manner of speaking. He was to have been my companion in Greece, poor fellow! had the unfortunate accident which deprived him of life not taken place.”
I replied, that I should indeed have been pleased, were he here now: not
that I might argue with him, but that time might have been given to him to change his
sentiments, and amend his life. “I never read any of his writings, but I have seen
some extracts from them in the
‘Quarterly Review’ and
most certainly it would be no honour to resemble him in his opinions, whatever it might
be to do so in other respects. From what he says there, he appears to me to have been a
man totally destitute of common sense. His poetry may perhaps be fine and sublime, but
to me it is perfectly unintelligible; unless so far as it appeared that
198 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“I do not at all mean to defend his sentiments,” said Lord B., “nor to approve of the mode in which he published them; but Shelley possessed many virtues, and many excellent qualities, and you would have liked him as a companion. He was cool in his manner; yet impassioned, animated, and eloquent in his conversation. I was much amused with him and another gentleman,” (he mentioned the name, but I forgot it;) “one was a Platonist, the other was not; and, after long arguments, they converted each other.”
“A proof,” I said, “that the opinions of neither were sound nor well weighed. Such things do very well for school-boys; but how a man of sense can conscientiously believe in the numbers and ideas of Plato is to me inexplicable. I wish, sincerely, however, that Shelley had been alive, that the wanderings of his imagination had subsided, and that he had become a sober, sensible man, a good Christian, and an honest member of society.”
“He possessed,” said his lordship, “one of the
first Christian virtues, charity and benevolence.
WITH LORD BYRON. | 199 |
“This is a virtue,” I replied, “and esteemed such among Christians, undoubtedly, but it is not a Christian virtue, unless it proceeds from Christian principles. With Shelley it surely could not be a Christian virtue. I admit that it is a virtue, a heathen or an infidel virtue, if you please; and he has had, and let him have, as much praise from men on account of it as he deserves: but in the sight of God it is nothing, for he has declared that nothing is pleasing to him, but what proceeds from a proper motive and principle, the fundamental point of which, belief in and love to Christ, was unfortunately wanting in Shelley. His fate is lamentable. I heard that he came out either to prosecute his inquiries with a view to overturn Christianity, or to write a book with that intent. Poor man! he little knew against whom he was fighting. His time came, and he died; died with his sins unrepented of and unanealed,—a striking warning to others, as to the opinions they should form, the mode in which they should live, and the necessity of preparing for death and judgment.”
“I see,” said Lord B.,
“it is impossible to ex-
200 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“I have as much sympathy,” I said, “and more than those who may praise and lament him the loudest; at least I ought to have more, not because a fine poet was lost to the world, but because a fellow-creature died so awfully and suddenly; and, in such a career of wild and infidel principles and sentiments, was summoned to the presence of his judge.”
I observed that by this time the day was declining, and apologized to his
lordship for having detained him so long. “The subjects are perhaps more
interesting,” I said, “to me than to you, and in pressing them on
your notice, with a hope that they may do you good, I am apt to forget times and
seasons. I must now return to the city, and I trust and pray that your lordship will
give due attention to them; for without a belief in these doctrines, you can never be
happy here, nor safe hereafter. God has given you a fine understanding, a knowledge to
distinguish between right and wrong. Every subject to which you choose to direct your
attention you can master; but there is no art or science
WITH LORD BYRON. | 201 |
“I intend to study the subject certainly,” said Lord B.; “you must give me time: you see I have begun well; I listen to every thing that is said, but you cannot expect me to become a good Christian all at once; you have found me, have you not? approach nearer to your sentiments than you had expected.”
“You have indeed done so, and I rejoice at it; and I have no hesitation in saying, that I have more hope of your lordship than of the others, with the exception of one: for you have shewn more candour, and patience, than I could possibly have expected.”
“Who is it that you have more hope of than
me?” “It is S.,” I said, “though of him I am not certain; the result of
all depends on the will of God: yet, judging by human probabilities and
202 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“As for the others, I do not know what to think or say. They seem
so hardened and indifferent, that the subject appears only as an exercise of their
reason, or a means of amusement and ridicule. It is difficult to keep your attention
fixed on the subject. You enter into other studies, amusements, and occupations, and
religion does not engage your thoughts; thus, you can never understand it. The
accidental circumstance of my being here has excited a transient interest and
curiosity, which will vanish probably as soon
WITH LORD BYRON. | 203 |
“I own,” said Lord B., “the difficulty of fixing, and continuing one’s attention to such subjects, considering the circumstances in which we are placed, and the strong and urgent calls to other matters. I think, however, that I may say I shall bestow more attention on it than I have hitherto done; but whether I shall reach the standard of orthodoxy, I know not.”
“We have no standard of orthodoxy, except
204 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“The best way of understanding the Scriptures, is to take the
Bible by itself, and examine its several parts, and what is obscure, or briefly
expressed in one part, will be found clearly and fully stated in another. The doctrines
are not presented to us in a systematized form, but are declared, applied, and implied,
and repeated, according to the actual circumstances of the people and the time in which
they were revealed. Many good men, from the love of system, have narrowed, and limited
the doctrine of the Scriptures; and in the systems which have been presented to us at
different times, there is much which is merely inferential, and, consequently, less
certain than that which is direct and positive. Although no system, at least none which
I have seen, is free from objections; yet, these are not without their use, inasmuch as
they present, in one strict, and concentrated view, the whole of the doctrines and
actions which ought to flow from them. We
WITH LORD BYRON. | 205 |
“I have very few books with me on religious subjects, and none
which present a complete view, or systematic arrangement of Christianity, except one.
It is perhaps the best that has been published, and I know of none which has been so
extensively useful, especially to the poor; and I acknowledge that I have derived more
instruction and improvement from it, than from works of greater fame and higher
pretensions. It is ‘Boston’s Fourfold
State,’ which describes man as he was in a state of innocence, before
the fall; in a state of condemnation after it; in a state of begun recovery, or
regeneration and sanctification; and in a state of happiness or misery. It has the
merit of being short; and though it is written in a plain, and rather antiquated style,
it is bold and energetic in its language: every assertion is supported by reference to
Scripture,
206 | CONVERSATIONS ON RELIGION |
“I shall read it with great pleasure,” said Lord B.; “I have not the least prejudice against the style of our older writers, I am quite accustomed to it, and prefer the force and energy of their language, to the soft harmonious periods of the present day, which have more sound than sense.”
I now rose to depart; and I said to Lord B., “Although I may perhaps have wearied your lordship with so long a lecture, yet, I am so pleased with the attention you have shewn, and I have so much hope that it may be useful, at least so far as to induce your lordship to prosecute the study of Christianity, that I should feel great pleasure to have another opportunity of conversing with you, if agreeable and convenient.”
“I shall be glad to see you at all times, and as often as you can
come out. I have no particular engagements. When my friends come from Argostoli, it is
on no fixed day.” “Does your lordship intend soon to go to
Greece?” “In about ten days or a fortnight all things will be
WITH LORD BYRON. | 207 |
≪ PREV | NEXT ≫ |